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Talk:Two-Headed Monster
names, again We have two discussions below concerning the origins of The Two-Headed Monster's names. Frank and Stein has been mentioned as appearing in The Sesame Street Treasury, but in the Nov 2006 discussion, I couldn't back that up with my copies of those books. Frank and Stein was also mentioned below from a Wikipedia article that said the names were heard in The How Many Game with Guy Smiley. Here's that sketch, but I don't hear it. There's a lot of noise at the end, but I don't think it's there. As for Horn and Hardart, sesameworkshop has the video right here, where Olivia reads about 2HM from a book as says their names. So, there we go. Another piece of the puzzle. It's still possible that Frank and Stein comes from somewhere legit, but as seen in the two claimed cases, it sounds to me like fans were desperate to corroborate their memories, and put the names into places where they provably didn't come from. —Scott (talk) 14:35, 29 May 2009 (UTC) :The names "Frank and Stein" are actually in the photo of the monster holding telephones, with the names "Frank N." and "Stein" written on the phone's labels. I'm not sure what the context is, and who's who (as they have their phone cords tangled, and appear to be holding the phones to each other's face). But "Horn and Hardart" do appear to be the key source, as they're referred to in the sketch. And you're right, their names are not given in the "How Many Game" sketch. -- MuppetDude 14:42, 29 May 2009 (UTC) ::In what book is the telephone photo? —Scott (talk) 15:02, 29 May 2009 (UTC) :::Volume 13, both inside the book and on the cover. -- MuppetDude 15:09, 29 May 2009 (UTC) ::::Yowza! When I went through those books (two and half years ago), it never occured to me to look in the actual picture itself. The source was never specific, so I assumed it would be found in the descriptive profile text. But sure enough, there it is on their phones. It's pretty small, so I blew it up in this scan. Traditionally, one's phone number was placed on a piece of paper in that space, so the descriptors do seem to indicate the characters' names. It looks to me that the right side is holding the Frank N. phone and the left side is holding the Stein phone. I don't know if we should take meaning from that, but there you go. —Scott (talk) 15:31, 29 May 2009 (UTC) :::::Oh! The story below the picture says that each head picked up his own phone. So in this instance, the right side is Frank N. and the left side is Stein. —Scott (talk) 15:36, 29 May 2009 (UTC) ::::::Looking at it closer yet again, the first name looks like FRANK'N. —Scott (talk) 15:43, 29 May 2009 (UTC) :::::::That's a great picture! It looks great on the page. And now, we've finally confirmed where the name comes from, and an official name (from the show itself)! -- MuppetDude 15:54, 29 May 2009 (UTC) Pronoun Trouble This was brought up awhile back, but it's still causing problems. Looking at this page, the article is all over the place, "his," "they," "itself," "himself," and so on. Confusion is understandable, but the writing looks horribly sloppy. For the record, here's how The Sesame Street Treasury Volume 13 handles it in a text story accompanying the cover photo, in which the character speaks coherently. The Two-Headed Monster was "twiddling his thumbs... when he heard a 'buzz buzz." "One head picked up his phone..." "'What do you want?' asked the first head." "The two-headed monster looked at himself..." "The two-headed monster, hanging up the receiver, said 'Gee, I guess we just got our wire's crossed." So in this story, the Two-Headed Monster is a he (not an it) and would appear to be singular when dealt with as a single being. However, the two heads are also separate, and "they" applies only when dealing with both heads. So, here's a typically awkward sentence in the article as it stands: "After sounding the word "pat," The monster pats each other, and they stop crying." If we follow the Treasury as a guideline (and I personally think that makes the most sense), one would say "The monster pats himself, and both heads stop crying," or something like that (the sketch description is rather confusing anyway). By that model, I also think it probably makes more sense to use "left head" or "one head," as opposed to "the left half" and so on. So to sum up, singular male when dealt with as an entity ("a sign is behind him"; "the monster greets his mother," etc.) or with an individual head, but plural when dealing with the behavior of the heads combined ("they argue with each other.") How's that sound? -- Andrew Leal (talk) 05:21, 15 September 2008 (UTC) :Sure, that makes sense. —Scott (talk) 05:45, 15 September 2008 (UTC) ::But in the "Two-headed monster cooperation" sketch, Olivia constantly refers to the monster as "it" (and at least one "itself"). --Minor muppetz 19:15, 5 June 2009 (UTC) 1978 Okay, checking the history, I added the fact about the Two-Headed Monster debuting in 1978. I can't remember my source, but it was probably an unofficial fan site or message board post (or many such unofficial sources). Does anybody know if there is an official source out there stating that the character debuted in 1978? The monster does appear in the finale of The Muppet Movie, so the puppet was at least built by 1979 (and I think the movie was completed in 1978). --Minor muppetz 18:13, 7 March 2008 (UTC) :Also, looking at the casting history, is there a source for David Rudman taking over Richard Hunt's half in 1992, as opposed to maybe a few years after Richard Hunt's death? --Minor muppetz 19:07, 7 March 2008 (UTC) ::No idea on the first part, but for the second, while I'm not sure that we can pinpoint a specific source or moment, in contrast to Gladys the Cow or Hunt's Muppet Show characters who were mostly unused for a good while, we know the Two-Headed Monster was still used with almost no interruption, so I personally see no reason to change that one unless we find specific evidence to the contrary (plus, at the same time, we know unquestionably that Rudman took over as Sonny Friendly). -- Andrew Leal (talk) 19:52, 7 March 2008 (UTC) :::Do you happen to know if any 1992 episodes feature David Rudman performing his half of the monster? Then again, though we know that Rudman took over as Sonny Friendly, do we know for sure that he took over the role right away? --Minor muppetz 17:31, 8 March 2008 (UTC) ::::Yes, for Friendly, a 1994 character list in the archives notes Rudman and I thinkit lists 1992 as when he took over (have to ask Danny about that; I know for a fact that Rudman played the role in the 1993 season, just haven't been able to track down episode numbers and so on). So at the most, that one would only be worth changing to "1990s," since 1993 seems to be the latest likelihood, certainly not "a few years," since there's plenty of indicators that the Monster was never shelved for a time the way others were (personally, in this case, I'd just as soon not change it unless we can prove it's inaccurate, and someone like Guillermo should easily be able to verify the claim one way or another). The debut date is iffier, especially since episodes from that era are harder to come by, so if you can't find a source, that should definitely go out. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 19:00, 8 March 2008 (UTC) :::::I took out the references to 1978 until we can find a source. —Scott (talk) 21:25, 18 March 2008 (UTC) ::::::The earliest appearance of Rudman's performance I have seen is from Elmopalooza!, and no earlier than that. As for Sonny Friendly, Rudman played him as early as season 25 (ep. #3238 features "The Crying Game Show"). -- MuppetDude 13:24, 19 March 2008 (UTC) Cite "Frank and Stein" I just went through every volume of The Sesame Street Treasury, and nowehere does it list the Two-Headed Monster's names as Frank and Stein. I'm planning on going through one more time just to be sure, but it looks to be another case of someone's mind making up memory on various bits of information collected over the years. As for the claim about the CTW website trivia game, there doesn't appear to be a way to pull that information up again. We need a more solid source. — Scott (talk) 03:19, 15 November 2006 (UTC) :Looking at the history for the page, Michael added the info about CTW's website back in February. — Scott (talk) 03:22, 15 November 2006 (UTC) Cite "The creation of this monster was inspired by performers Jerry Nelson and Richard Hunt playing around on the set one day, saying that they were a two-headed monster." This sounds familiar, but we could use a source on it. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 01:21, 8 November 2006 (UTC) Horn and Hardark Did we ever discuss these names on the wiki? This page cites these names as the Two-Headed Monster, with a "maybe" attached. The "maybe" makes me want to throw it out right at the door, but it would be interesting to know where that (mis)information came from. — Scott (talk) 13:59, 26 October 2006 (UTC) :First, if they had been called such, it would have been "Horn and Hardart," not Hardark, a reference to the automat chain. And the same page also says "Frank & Stein," maybe. I'll look into it further, see if any old newspaper articles mentioned either combination, but right now, it seems to be either a one-time mention (which if found, would be worth mentioning), possibly a joke nickname ala "Fuzzyface," or just another fan meme. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 14:29, 26 October 2006 (UTC) ::Well, I'm turning up practically nothing so far. However, I did find this Wikipedia passage: ::So at the least, it appears there's a source for Frank and Stein (if someone can find the sketch and verify), but no statement for where or when "Hord and Hardart/Hardark" came from -- Andrew Leal (talk) 14:46, 26 October 2006 (UTC) :::Wikipedia's list of Sesame Street characters used to say "Horn and Hardark" were named after hotels before I removed the info. Our own article cites a 1998 CTW website trivia game that names them as Frank and Stein. — Scott (talk) 14:54, 26 October 2006 (UTC) Character Pairs Does he really belong in this category? I would argue against it. -- Peter (talk) 18:43, 6 June 2006 (UTC) :Since this is still in active talk pages, might as well put my oar in. I know we're referring to the character as singular, "Two-Headed Monster," but he's a pair as far as clashing personalities, interaction, etc., so I'd say he counts. But if it galls you that much, take it out. Andrew Leal (talk) 02:00, 19 June 2006 (UTC) Singular or Plural In a change summary, Danny wrote: The Two Headed Monster is singular... isn't he? I wouldn't think so. They have two different brains / two different performers / two different personalities. I'd call them a they, not a he. -- Scott Scarecroe 19:19, 3 February 2006 (UTC) :I'd also treat this character as a "they", for the reasons you cited: the heads may share one body below their necks, but the monster otherwise talks, feels, and acts like two characters. --ISNorden 16:21, 21 July 2006 (UTC) :I would say that "the Two-Headed Monster" is singular ("he"), but it's collective, so each head is also a "he". -- PrawnRR 20:09, 3 February 2006 (UTC) ::From A Muppet Family Christmas: :::Bert: Now, who let the Two-Headed Monster be Santa Claus? :::Ernie: Yeah, but Bert, he said he'd never been in a play before...I mean they said it...um...both of them said it. ::-- BradFraggle 20:45, 3 February 2006 (UTC)' "Two Headed" or "Two-Headed" My question is, is there a reason this article is called "Two Headed Monster", without a hyphen, instead of the more gramatically correct "Two-Headed Monster", or would it be okay to move it? -Anal Ryan R PrawnRR 20:09, 3 February 2006 (UTC) :The best source I can think of is Sesame Street Unpaved, and that says Two-Headed Monster. So I'm going to move the page. Good catch! -- Danny Toughpigs 22:32, 3 February 2006 (UTC)